207: Sequoia & Kings Canyon National Parks

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Family travel adventurer Karilyn Owen, from NoBackHome.com, shares her love of Sequoia and Kings Canyon National Parks in California. Find out why you should look beyond Yosemite to these lesser visited National Parks. Tamara also shares a some new attractions in New York City that you should check out if you are planning a visit soon.

About Karilyn Owen

Karilyn, the founder of the popular family travel blog No Back Home, is a writer, photographer and influencer sharing her family’s adventures at home in Southern California and around the world to inspire other families to get out and explore, even if it’s just in their own city. Karilyn and her nature-obsessed 11 year old focus on hiking, backpacking, camping, hands-on learning and seeking out the world’s beauty wherever they find themselves. Karilyn has traveled to 50 countries on her own and to 35 with her son. Follow Karilyn on Instagram.

Read Karilyn’s blog posts about:

• Kings Canyon Scenic Byway
• Camping in Kings Canyon
• Visiting Sequoia National Park in the winter
• Sequoia National Park in one day

Tips for Visiting Sequoia & Kings Canyon National Parks

• Sequoia and Kings Canyon are actually two separate national parks, but they are operated together
• They are south of Yosemite and many people will extend a trip to Yosemite to include Sequoia and Kings Canyon, but they have enough to make for a good stand alone trip, even for multi-generational families
• They offer huge sequoia forests, granite canyons, and rivers
• If you wanted to fly out for a trip, the largest major airport would be Los Angeles (LAX) and it is about a 3-4 hour drive from there. You can also connect and fly into Fresno, CA
• Sequoia is good to visit any time of year and you can go snowshoeing and you can drive all the way into the park (in the summer you need to take shuttles)
• You need to visit Kings Canyon in the summer as the road that goes through the park closes after the first snow. Giant’s Highway which connects the two parks is also closed in the winter. The roads generally open in late spring, as early as April and as late as June, depending on the snow
• You can drive from the Giant’s Forest area of Sequoia to the main tourist area in Kings Canyon in about one hour, although it is another hour into the Canyon
• If you are doing just these two parks, you will want to stay three days or longer, especially if you are visiting in the summer when you are spending more time waiting for shuttles
• Some people will do Yosemite, Kings Canyon and Sequoia in one week
• The must-see places in Sequoia are:
  • The Congress Trail – about 3 miles through the forest
  • Morro Rock – climb up about 430 stairs to the top, sometimes people like to do this for sunrise
  • Mt. Whitney is the highest mountain in the continental US but you need a permit to climb it as part of the John Muir Trail
  • Big Trees Trail is great for kids because it is a boardwalk with signposts explaining the life cycle of the trees
  • Topakah Falls – there aren’t sequoias but it is a great trail that has a waterfall, you can see wildlife, and it isn’t as crowded
• In Kings Canyon do Mist Falls trail, but not in the early season because the rivers are too high
• Sequoia and Kings Canyon don’t currently require reservations to enter the park or permits for hikes beyond the John Muir Trail or backpacking
• Favorite camping sites:
  • Camping is the best for both parks because the nearest towns are about 45 minutes away (without traffic)
  • Sentinel Campground, open mid-May-September is best in Kings Canyon
  • Lodge Pole in Sequoia is a good spot for families with plenty of amenities
  • In the winter, stay in Three Rivers, near the entrance of Sequoia, and there are places to explore in town
  • If you want to stay outside of Kings Canyon, there are Airbnbs in small towns outside of the park but the biggest large town with hotels would be Visalia, CA, about an hour – an hour and twenty minutes away
  • If you are driving an RV or camper van, there are limitations on lengths/heights for both parks that you should check ahead of time before you go or book a rental
• A food truck called Gorilla Quesadilla in Three Rivers and a restaurant in Visalia that is delicious and large portions that make everyone happy
• Visalia is a great town because there are more restaurant options (there aren’t any places inside of the parks) and you can also take an orange grove tour
• There have been a number of forest fires in recent years so you may want to avoid August and possibly September, and follow the National Parks on social media to get updates about smoke or park closings
• When you are visiting make sure to follow the Leave No Trace principles and bring in recyclable materials that you can easily pack back out because garbage is limited in the parks
• There are a lot bears in the park (especially Sequoia) so make sure to make a lot of noise as you are hiking, but luckily they are generally not aggressive. Make sure to store all food in bear lockers
• Bear spray is not allowed in the California National Parks
• There is not good cell service in the park so you may want to invest in a GPS tracker like a Garmin Inreach device
• Make sure you bring in enough water and food in case of an emergency
• Karilyn loves wearing wool and has been wearing a Wool And dress every day for the last year

Full Episode Transcript

[00:00:00.130] – Kim Tate

You’ve heard of Yosemite, but have you heard of these other two national parks nearby?

[00:00:16.290] – Tamara Gruber

Welcome to Vacation Mavens, a family travel podcast with ideas for your next vacation and tips to get you out the door. Here are your hosts, Kim from Stuffed Suitcase and Tamara from We3Travel.

[00:00:31.130] – Tamara Gruber

So, Kim, it was so nice to get to see you in New York last week.

[00:00:35.060] – Kim Tate

I feel like we’ve been spoiled. We had Portugal for a long trip together, and then we got to go to Tempe together, and then we saw each other again in January. So now it’s becoming a regular thing. We’re going to have to figure out what we’re doing this spring.

[00:00:49.080] – Tamara Gruber

Yeah, we need to figure that out.

[00:00:51.210] – Kim Tate

Let’s look at our calendar and start planning some stuff. That was the good thing about IMM. We have some great new destinations we got to meet. But before we had our conference, I know that you had a little bit of tourist time and you saw kind of a big popular new attraction in the area. So do you want to tell our listeners a little about what you did?

[00:01:07.390] – Tamara Gruber

Sure. I feel like there’s a lot of talk about visiting cities right now, and some of it is true. There’s definitely been a rise in crime, but that’s not always in the tourist areas. But I really feel like New York is kind of stepping up the game when it comes to attractions and other things. And I just feel like I used to live in New York, and I feel like New York rested on its laurels for quite a while because everyone wants to come to New York, no matter how bad the subway system is or dirty the streets might be. There’s something special about New York, but other cities have really gone out and done more when it comes to new attractions. And for so long. Like, New York had the Empire State Building, they had Top of the Rock statue of Liberty.

[00:01:56.220] – Tamara Gruber

But recently there’s been some new things. So one of them is called Summit at One Vanderbilt. So it’s right near Grand Central Station, and it is another observation deck, but it’s really built as an experience. So when you go to Top of the Rock and Empire State, we’ve both been there together, great views and all of that, but this is really an experience. So with Summit One Vanderbilt, you go up. First of all, even in the elevator, it’s kind of a bit of a crazy experience because it’s mirrored there’s some, like flashing lights. It’s definitely not good if you have issues with flashing lights, although they’ll put you in a separate elevator, if that is the case. But you very, very quickly go up. I can’t forget what floor it’s on, but it’s one of the tallest in the city, and it takes only a few seconds. Where I remember back in the day when you did the Empire State, you’re kind of like you go up to this level, then you switch to that elevator. You have all that pressure in your ear.

[00:02:50.830] – Kim Tate

I remember that.

[00:02:51.800] – Tamara Gruber

Yeah. There it’s just like, boom, like right up. And I barely even noticed it in my ears. But anyway, you walk out and the floor is kind of mirrored, and there’s kind of, like mirrors on the wall. They actually tell you to bring sunglasses, or they’ll give you reflective glasses, and they also give you these shoe covers to put on your feet, kind of like you would in a hospital, like, for some reason. But it’s just so that you don’t scratch the floors but just make them a little bit slippery. Feel a little funny with these big things on your feet. You see all these Instagram people doing all these poses and making just posing for their pictures. And they’ve got these hospital guards.

[00:03:29.430] – Kim Tate

The people that come work on your house, and they put them on before the house, right?

[00:03:32.810] – Tamara Gruber

Yeah. But when you walk out there, it’s an indoor. It’s not an outdoor observation deck. It’s inside, but it has this huge room with all these mirrored kind of surfaces. But it’s not like the silver shiny mirror. It’s more of, like a darker has, like, a gold hue to. It kind of like a club in a way.

[00:03:52.510] – Kim Tate

Vegas in the 80s.

[00:03:53.590] – Tamara Gruber

It was very disorienting because you’re like, wait, there’s, like, stuff coming at me. I feel like, from every direction. But if you can kind of, like, step through some of the crowd and get close to the windows, there’s, like, really beautiful views. But then it’s not just that one room. You can go around to another side, and then there’s this room that has all these silver Mylar kind of beach balls. So they’re like balloons. So it’s like there’s actually somebody’s job. It’s just like he has a broom or something that he’s just, like, pushing them back up in the air. So people are, like, playing and floating, tapping them around and making them float up in the air. And so it’s just like a very instagramy type of thing, but it’s fun. So just like it’s, again, more than just like an observation deck. And then you can go around to another side where you have a view of, like, the Chrysler Building over to the Hudson River, and it’s just very calm there. You’re more focused on the view, and then you can go up to the second floor, and there is a bar there, and you can go outside there.

[00:04:54.590] – Tamara Gruber

When we went, it was like 20 degrees and kind of windy. So we very quickly walked and then came back inside. We didn’t even take any pictures outside to expose your hand to the elements. And then you can hang out there’s, like a balcony overlooking, like, that one main area. So definitely, like, a whole experience. You do buy tickets in advance. It’s like a timed entry ticket that you purchase. The popular time to go would be right around sunset. So if you want to avoid the crowds, don’t go around sunset because unless you really know how to take a very good sunset picture, you’re not going to get the best pictures anyway because it’s kind of glory. And then if you’re like right up close to the glass, the glass still has some watermarks and dirt and specs on it. I don’t know. I’ve seen pictures. People take some interesting photos, but it can get crowded. So finding a little space to do that is hard. But I think the ticket was around $40. I think that included the elevator. There’s one where you can go up, like in the basic elevator. You definitely do not need the fancy elevator.

[00:06:00.900] – Tamara Gruber

And then there’s one that you can do that includes a drink, but you can also just buy a drink. You want a drink anyway, I enjoyed it. I thought it was cool, something new. I was considering also going to another new thing which is called the Edge. The edge. And that is over that’s over by Hudson Yards, which is close to where we were staying because our conference was over on Java Center over by on the West Side.

[00:06:29.430] – Kim Tate

The Hudson Yards area is really becoming almost like another tourist district where if you’re looking for somewhere to stay because the conventions there, I mean, everybody always thinks Midtown near the new Times Square ish anywhere around there. But I think the Hudson Yards area is becoming pretty popular. There’s a couple of luxury nice hotels around there.

[00:06:50.820] – Tamara Gruber

I was really impressed by how much they’ve kind of built that up because when they first kind of developed, it had the vessel, which some people may have seen pictures of. But it’s this nice structure where art installation. Yeah. But very tall. Used to be able to go up and climb stairs kind of wrapped around through it. It almost looks like a bit like a Beehive. Exactly.

[00:07:15.360] – Kim Tate

Yeah. I can put it that way.

[00:07:17.000] – Tamara Gruber

But that’s now closed.

[00:07:18.630] – Kim Tate

It’s so sad. I wish I would have done it when it was me too, because I know we were there and it just opened. But then we couldn’t figure out the timing and yeah, that’s too bad.

[00:07:30.240] – Tamara Gruber

But now it’s like attached to this whole kind of indoor luxury mall and entertainment area that’s also connected to office space. You saw that WarnerMedia is there. It’s just very unne York, like to have like kind of the indoor mall. But I know like Chicago has these things and we ate it was definitely high end.

[00:07:56.730] – Kim Tate

 Tiffany Cartier. Yeah, we ate there. I loved that. We ate a wild Ink which you had found. And it’s located in there. There was about three restaurants, I think that I noticed that were in there. But the neat thing. So if you guys are planning a trip to New York. The nice thing was it was restaurant week, and I think it’s also Broadway week and hotels week. So kind of a perk of traveling on this off season is you can get some really room steals for a prime tourist destination, in my opinion. And the Wild Ink was great. We paid $39, which is a flat fee for ordering off the menu. And we all got an appetizer, a main entry, and a dessert. But everyone had the trick about that. Everyone had to order off the same menu. So if one person didn’t want it, then you’re in trouble. But if everyone agrees to order off the restaurant menu, you’re good to go.

[00:08:47.690] – Tamara Gruber

and we’ve been lucky enough to be there many years when it is restaurant week. And some restaurants have that rule and some don’t. Exactly. But it’s such a bargain for really good restaurants. And I know most cities have restaurant week. And sometimes, I mean, it’s always like a slightly smaller menu, but sometimes I feel like they really also shrink the portions. And I really felt like Wild Ink didn’t. It was more than I could eat.

[00:09:13.610] – Kim Tate

It was amazing. And the food was really unique, delicious, beautiful. And the outlook, like you look our table looked right out over Hudson River in the vessel area. So it’s absolutely beautiful in the space.

[00:09:27.450] – Tamara Gruber

We were all a little concerned about covid, and obviously in New York now if you don’t know, like, you need to show your vaccination card to get into any indoor dining or attractions. And I was looking at spaces that felt spacious, which is not always easy to find. I remember our friend Karilyn that we’re going to talk to today was a little worried about, like, all those small New York restaurants. I’m like, no, this one has a really tall ceiling. It seems really spacious. So it was definitely, like just a beautiful design. It was nice. And actually that day before you arrived, our friend Kirsten and I went to Mercado at Little Spain, which is I describe it as like an Italy for Spanish food. And it’s from chef Jose Andres, which you probably know from all of his philanthropic work, where he goes in and he feeds people after natural disaster.

[00:10:17.490] – Tamara Gruber

And his food is amazing. I’ve eaten at his restaurants in DC and in Miami and in Orlando love his food. So he created this concept. And that’s also right there at Hudson Yards. And it has a tapas restaurant. It has another sit down restaurant. But then there’s also, like a little market, and there’s a little stand for, like, churros and chocolate and another stand if you’re just looking to buy, like, some meat and a fish thing and a paella place. So, yeah, it was a lot of fun, and it was a good deal. They also had a restaurant week menu, but then they also had I think it was like wine Wednesday, where if you wanted to get a bottle of wine, it was half price and things like that. Yeah, definitely for a bargain. It’s cold.

[00:11:00.990] – Kim Tate

Another thing, it does snow and you can have flight issues, which a lot of our fellow colleagues had to hurry home or change their flights because a lot of flights got canceled on Saturday.

[00:11:10.400] – Tamara Gruber

 I will say I was able to take the train in and out. And for years, Penn Station, it was just a dump. It’s like there’s so many commuters that go in and out. Even when I lived in New York, I actually worked down in Princeton, New Jersey. So I took the train in and out of there on New Jersey Transit. And it’s just crowded and dirty and where people just like you’re standing there and as soon as they call your track, you’re rushing to your track. And they’ve opened this whole new section. I think it was the old post office, but it had been, I think, empty for a long time. So they’re creating office space there, but they’ve created this whole train hall where Amtrak and I think Long Island Railroad just along now. So you have the food hall, which is kind of just opening. Not everything is there. But I’m like, wow, if I had had these kinds of places to eat from actually when I moved up here to Rhode Island for a while at a client in New York, and I would go back once a week and then once a month.

[00:12:08.780] – Tamara Gruber

And so at the end of the day, I would be taking the train home and I would always need to pick up some food that I would eat on the train. And it was always like I went to Smoothie King. Shake Shack would have been like, way gourmet. I’m like, that’s what I would have picked up. No, they had a bagel place, a smoothie place, and like a pizza place. It was just not certainly not the options that there are today where it’s like, oh, look at that beautiful bar where you can just sit down and shock find where to buy the Long Island Railroad ticket.

[00:12:43.110] – Kim Tate

Because I go home. I go to and from JFK that way. And I was wandering around for a while because it was so new. And I was like, where do I just get the Lir tickets?

[00:12:53.480] – Kim Tate

Oh, it’s this beautiful big space now. I just go right over there.

[00:12:57.520] – Tamara Gruber

It’s funny because when I arrived in New York, I was just following signs, like trying to get to the exit on 34th and 8th. And I see all the signs that are like Monahan Train Hall. And I’m like, well, I don’t want to go there. And I’m like, oh, if I had gone there, I probably would have had an escalator instead of having to carry my bag.

[00:13:17.610] – Kim Tate

Yeah, that’s funny. I was looking because then all of a sudden I was like, oh, I want to get off at 8th and 34th. And then all of a sudden somehow I ended up at 8th and 33rd. And I was like.

[00:13:25.390] – Tamara Gruber

Okay, I guess I’ll just get off there.

[00:13:27.700] – Kim Tate

We’ll just make it work. Thank goodness. That’s the one good thing about New York is the streets make sense. As long as you’re not messing with Broadway. Broadway throws you off, which you’ve taught me well. We talked about how we had dinner and chatted with Karilyn. She is such a great little friend. And we’re going to go from the tight spaces and subways and trains of New York. And now we’re going to talk to her all about the wide open spaces of Sequoia and Kings Canyon National Parks in California, which are near Yosemite. But many people haven’t heard of them. So let’s talk with Karilyn all about those two places.

[00:14:01.250] – Tamara Gruber

Yeah, I can’t wait because I really don’t know about those parks. And she is such an expert when it comes to anything outdoors and family Adventure

[00:14:17.110] – Tamara Gruber

We are here to speak with Karilyn Owen. Karilyn is the founder of the popular family travel blog no Back Home. She is a writer, photographer, and influencer, sharing her family’s adventures at home in Southern California and around the world to inspire other families to get out and explore, even if it’s just in their own city. Karilyn and her nature obsessed eleven year old focus on hiking, backpacking, camping, hands on learning, and seeking out the world’s beauty wherever they may find themselves. Karilyn has traveled to 50 countries on her own and 35 with her son. So welcome back, Karilyn.

[00:14:47.910] – Karilyn Owen

Hi. How are you guys?

[00:14:49.470] – Tamara Gruber

Good. I’m excited that we just saw you last week in New York, and now we get to talk again about something that I know is kind of near and dear to your heart. And whenever somebody talks about outdoor family adventure, you’re always the person that comes to mind because you and Kean are always off exploring and doing some amazing camping and backpacking and hiking and all that. So I feel like this is going to be another year and people want to spend a lot of time outside. And we’ve covered some of the more kind of common, larger national parks. But one of the places that I know you really enjoy that we want to cover this time was Sequoia and Kings Canyon National Park in California. And you guys have been there, I think, multiple times. So can you tell our listeners a little bit about these parks? Like, where are they? What makes them so special? Why do you like them so much?

[00:15:38.700] – Karilyn Owen

Sure. They are actually two parks. It’s Sequoia and Kings Canyon, which is weird and people don’t quite realize, but they are two separate national parks, but they are run together as one and they’re sort of merged geographically as one. They’re located just south of Yosemite. So a lot of people tend to visit as a day trip, not as a day trip necessarily, but either on their way to Yosemite or on their way home from Yosemite, but not as a destination of its own, which is really sad because these two parks are amazing and offer so much adventure for families with kids of all ages, adults, multi generational families, everybody. It’s a great space to visit. We love it because it offers some of the great things of Yosemite, like the granite canyons, the Rivers, but also has a huge Sequoia forest, which are really amazing and intriguing for little kids especially.

[00:16:42.850] – Kim Tate

Yeah, for sure. I know that they’re quite special. And as a family who’s been to the Redwoods quite a bit, I’ve always wondered what the Sequoia trees, how they would feel differently. So that sounds like it’s just a beautiful area. And can you just quickly talk about you talked about the location, but just tell people, like maybe the nearest cities, like how you would get what your nearest large city would be to be able to get to and from these parks.

[00:17:09.140] – Karilyn Owen

Sequoia and Kings Canyon are a little bit difficult. If you were flying into Sequoia and Kings Canyon, probably the largest international hub or big airport would be Los Angeles. And then it’s about a three to four hour drive, depending which part you’re going to. For a closer airport, it would be Fresno, which is a smaller airport, but they do have quite a bit of flight because a lot of backpackers go in and out of that hub as well.

[00:17:37.470] – Kim Tate

Okay, great. And then I know that because you guys are sort of locals, you’ve visited at some different seasons. I’ve even seen you going in the winter. So what do you think is the best time to visit these parks?

[00:17:48.100] – Karilyn Owen

For Sequoia? Any time of year is amazing because like you said, I have been in the winter, you can go snow shoeing. There’s been a big snowstorm, but a lot of times there’s not a lot of snow. So it’s a perfect time to go because it’s empty and you can drive up into the area and park really closely to a lot of the trailheads, which is not available in the summer because they operate shuttles to keep the visitors sort of the roads a little bit clear. Kings Canyon, unfortunately, the only time you can visit is really in the summer because the road is closed during the winter. So after the first snow fall and then until maybe mid May, the road is closed. So you can’t go down.

[00:18:26.730] – Tamara Gruber

So is Kings Canyon higher elevation then?

[00:18:30.190] – Karilyn Owen

It’s actually lower elevation, but the road, it starts at around 6500ft elevation and then it goes down to 4000, but they just don’t plow the road. It’s a very small road that goes into the Canyon and it’s very winding, so they decided not to plow it, so it’s closed all winter. Additionally, the road that connects Kings Canyon, and Sequoia is called the Giants Highway, and that is also closed in the winter. So there’s never a specific opening day. It’s kind of dependent on the snow levels each year. So last year it opened in April, but some years it doesn’t open until June.

[00:19:10.750] – Tamara Gruber

Now, I know you said that these parks in the two separate parks, they operate kind of as one. How long would it take to get from one to the other if you’re going, like in the summer and you could visit both if you were starting?

[00:19:22.280] – Karilyn Owen

What a lot of people do is they start from Sequoia and they do the sort of giant forest area, which is the main sort of touristy area, and then you can drive from there to the main touristy area at the top of Kings Canyon. And that takes about 45 minutes to get just from there between the two if there’s no traffic. If you want to go down into Kings Canyon, though, that’s another hour one way. So about 2 hours total from Sequoia.

[00:19:51.310] – Tamara Gruber

Got it. So I feel like so many people, especially from out of state, me being on the East Coast, I don’t really know these parks at all. But everyone talks about Yosemite. That gets so much attention. And I know how crowded that can be, especially in the summer. So it’s interesting to hear you say that there’s like shuttles for these because I would think like, oh, no one is probably at these parks, but it sounds like in the summer it still can be pretty busy. But if you’re planning a trip just there or if you’re then going to add on Yosemite, how long would you say to stay if you’re doing just these two parks?

[00:20:26.830] – Karilyn Owen

For me, I could stay easily a week. Most people probably at the maximum, say three days. But there is so much to do. And if you do go during the high peak summer season, you are reliant on the shuttle to move you around so you don’t have as much flexibility. You’re spending a lot more time probably waiting for shuttles than if you went during the spring or the fall. There’s plenty to do. You could easily spend a few days in Sequoia itself and then another couple of days in Kings Canyon, what the sort of region likes to call, they try to say, like do three parks in one and do Yosemite, Sequoia and Kings Canyon in a week in a seven day trip. So that’s also possible.

[00:21:08.470] – Kim Tate

So do you have any most of the time people I know that you get deep into these parks, but if people are kind of wanting to get their feel for it, what are some of the must do hikes or musty spaces in these two little or known national parks?

[00:21:21.810] – Karilyn Owen

There’s so much to do in Sequoia. I would say the big things that most people do are the Congress Trail, which is a really cool trail it’s about 3 miles and it leads you through some really huge sequoias that a lot of them actually have really big burn scars, which may be worse actually after this last fire. But it’s a really interesting area, the Congress trail. And then another big thing that most people do is Morro Rock which you climb up, I think 430 stairs sounds torturous but essentially it’s not too bad. You climb up to the top and then you have views all over Sequoia and even all the way to Mount Whitney, which is the tallest mountain in continental US, which is also technically part of Sequoia National Park. And those were kind of the big ones for little kids. We really like big trees trail because it’s just a boardwalk and it has little signposts all along the way really explaining all the life cycle of the Sequoia trees. So it’s a nice just kind of learning trail. And then our favorite is Tokapa Falls. It is a little bit different because there are no Sequoia trees on that trail.

[00:22:33.400] – Karilyn Owen

So it kind of is a nice place to go when the rest of the park is really crowded because you can kind of get a little bit away. It’s not that unknown of a trail but it’s just people want to see the Sequoia trees, but it’s nice and you’ll see some marmots and a really beautiful waterfall and it just has really diverse scenery. So that is our must do for Sequoia and for Kings Canyon. You have to go down into the Canyon to do our favorite which is Mist Falls trail. And it follows along a river up into the mountains and crosses a few creeks. And it’s a really nice trail, but I would not recommend that one in the early season because some of the Rivers are a little bit high at that time. We are looking to do the John Your trail, which summits Mount Whitney and that’s like the big culmination is that you’re summiting the Palace Mountain in continental US.

[00:23:23.680] – Tamara Gruber

So that sounds like a multi day type of hike then.

[00:23:27.130] – Karilyn Owen

Yeah, that will be a 25 day hike for backpacking. Wow.

[00:23:31.980] – Kim Tate

So it’s kind of like Pacific Crest Trail.

[00:23:34.750] – Karilyn Owen

It’s like the California version.

[00:23:37.210] – Kim Tate

Okay.

[00:23:37.710] – Karilyn Owen

So it’s called the John Muir Trail and it starts in Yosemite Valley and it goes all along the Eastern Sierra and in Mount Whitney. So it is very popular. It’s about 210 miles if you just do the traditional trail. But it’s become so popular that people are adding on different exit points so they can get permits to do it. I’ve been trying now for two weeks to get permits and I’ve had no luck so far.

[00:24:04.420] – Tamara Gruber

But I will say if anybody had any doubts that you are like the outdoor adventure family that they should be following, like I think that just convinced them 25 days. Yeah, good luck.

[00:24:20.290] – Tamara Gruber

But the other hikes within the parks like that obviously requires a permit because it’s something special. Are there other like, permits or reservations or things that you need when you’re in the parks? I know more and more of these are being introduced in some of the national parks for these parks.

[00:24:35.890] – Karilyn Owen

For day hiking, there’s no permits. You don’t need anything, and you don’t need reservations either. I don’t know if Yosemite is going to do reservations again this year, but in the past two years, they have had reservation systems. So even to go in for the day. But Sequoia and Kings Canyon have been open with no reservations. If you did want to do backpacking because there are quite a few backpacking trails in both of those parks, you would need permits for those which are also very difficult to get, by the way.

[00:25:06.210] – Tamara Gruber

Really? Okay. Well, I was going to say you obviously love to camp, whether it’s backpacking or driving and camping. You have shared so many of your favorite gear and stuff for camping, but I’m wondering within these parks or nearby, do you have some favorite camping sites for people that are interested in that? And if camping is not their thing, would you know of any hotels or places to look to stay outside of the parks?

[00:25:31.970] – Karilyn Owen

Maybe, yes. So camping obviously is the best for both of these parks only because the nearest towns are a little bit of a drive away, about 45 minutes. And during the summer, that can get very busy, the road going in and out of the park. So 45 minutes could become an hour and a half, sadly, during some of the summer. So for camping for Kings Canyon, we highly recommend Sentinel Campground, which is down in the Canyon and it’s only open mid May to maybe September October. That one is great and that you do have to book in advance, but they actually don’t open it until the reservation systems until the road is going to be open. So you can’t book yet. For Sequoia, there’s a lot of campgrounds there. Our favorite probably is Lodgepole. It’s very popular, but it’s very big, so you can usually get a spot and it’s right by the store. And that kind of gives you that summer camp experience. But if you don’t want to camp, there are places to stay. We like to stay in the winter. We stay in Three Rivers, which is only about 3 miles from the entrance of Sequoia.

[00:26:39.970] – Karilyn Owen

However, once you get through the entrance, it’s still a 40 minutes drive up into the mountains. But that town is perfect. It’s really cute. There’s lots of actual hikes and little places to explore around there as well. If the park is too busy for Kings Canyon, it’s a little harder. There are some small little towns right outside of the park that you could get Airbnb, but the biggest town nearby would be Visalia, and that is about an hour and 20 minutes from either entrance.

[00:27:09.020] – Tamara Gruber

Oh, wow. Yeah. That’s definitely sounds more convenient to be like on site. You do a lot of tent camping. Do these campgrounds also take camper vans or RVs? I know a lot of people have enjoyed renting an RV and doing some of the parks that way.

[00:27:26.360] – Karilyn Owen

Yes. I think almost all the campgrounds have RV and camper van spaces. They all basically have the pad. I don’t know that they have hookups. They do allow the RVs, but I don’t know that they have hookups, to be honest. When we were there at Kings Canyon, we went twice last summer and almost all of the spots were actually RVs or camper vans. There were only a few tents. Yeah.

[00:27:48.330] – Kim Tate

I’m guessing that those roads around there can be pretty windy and crazy. So you probably have to be careful, though, not having too large of an RV vehicle because I’m guessing it would be a pain to drive.

[00:27:59.510] – Karilyn Owen

Actually, there are rules going down into Kings Canyon. I cannot remember right now what the length is, but there are rules for the camper van. So that is something very important to check for that road and also the general highway that runs between Sequoia and Kings Canyon.

[00:28:20.210] – Tamara Gruber

It seems like a common issue with national parks. I know when we talked to Anne from Honeytrek about the Southwest Grand Circle Tour, she also mentioned some length restrictions or height restrictions. So I think for anyone that is planning to do some type of RV rental and national parks, it’s definitely something to research ahead of time.

[00:28:42.830] – Karilyn Owen

Yeah, you have to know and just knowing if there’s hookups or if there’s a lot of times even the parks, they don’t have hookups, but they do have dump stations, which is important and convenient for people in the RV.

[00:28:55.280] – Kim Tate

Well, I know that near Yosemite there are some great little towns that have a lot of like, gold history and you can even go skiing. And of course, it got some wineries and breweries. So I’m assuming around Sequoia and Kings Canyon there’s probably some really cute neighboring towns like you mentioned, places that you’ve stayed. And so do you have any little thoughts or tips about people who are planning on visiting the area? Maybe some things not to miss that aren’t just national parks.

[00:29:21.370] – Karilyn Owen

Well, one is our favorite food place. There’s a truck. I want to say Taco Truck, but it’s not Tacos. It’s called Trilla Quesadilla, and there’s one in Three Rivers. And then there’s an actual storefront restaurant in Visalia that is our go to stop every time we’re on our way to either Sequoia or Kings Canyon. Really delicious, massive quesadillas that will make everybody happy in Visalia. We stayed there a couple of times when we couldn’t get a combination closer to the park. And it is more of a drive, but it’s nice because you have more restaurant options. There are no places to eat within the parks, so it’s kind of nice to spend some time outside of the park and also in town. There’s other things to do. Like, one thing Kean really loves my son is doing the Orange Grove tours because there’s a ton of Orange Groves in the area. And so you can do a tour to find out all the information on how they grow the different oranges. And I don’t know, he finds that stuff really fascinating. Otherwise that this area is not a winery area like Yosemite. There’s no mountains for skiing.

[00:30:32.230] – Karilyn Owen

It’s pretty much just small town bordering the parks and just hikes and outdoor nature.

[00:30:38.240] – Tamara Gruber

I feel like I talked to someone from Visalia once, and they had mentioned kind of like doing this hike in the morning to see sunrise and then going over to the coast and seeing sunset. It’s like the sunrise to sunset kind of.

[00:30:51.150] – Karilyn Owen

Yeah. They call it the Morro rock. So you can do Morro rock the hike that I was saying in Sequoia, climb up the 400 stairs and see the sunrise, and then you can drive to the coast and to Morro Bay.

[00:31:06.530] – Kim Tate

When you said Morro Rock, that was the morro rock that I thought of as Morro Bay rock.

[00:31:10.650] – Karilyn Owen

Yeah, it’s a cute little thing. And it is in California, we love to do stuff like that. We like to go to the mountains to ski in the morning and then watch the sunset at the beach. That’s our Southern California sort of thing to do with.

[00:31:26.220] – Tamara Gruber

Yeah, that makes me jealous.

[00:31:30.210] – Karilyn Owen

It was 75 yesterday. We were at the beach.

[00:31:34.230] – Tamara Gruber

The only thing that I have to brag about is at least I can drive anywhere in my state in like 45 minutes.

[00:31:44.290] – Kim Tate

I was going to say I think we might still be slightly winning in the Seattle area on rent and real estate over you guys in SoCal, but it’s close, so I don’t know what I can brag about. Really. Fresh air, clean air. We still have clean air here as long as it’s not forest fire season until the summer. Yeah, exactly.

[00:32:02.470] – Tamara Gruber

That’s actually something I wanted to ask about because you had mentioned some of the fire burn scars on the trees. And I know that this has become more and more of an issue, and I feel like it’s no longer one offs. I really think that these days when we’re planning our travel, especially summer travel, we really have to take some of these kind of weather related issues into consideration. So is there like a fire season or a time that you should really maybe avoid because of some issues?

[00:32:35.590] – Karilyn Owen

Honestly, I would say avoid August. The fires typically weren’t starting until September, but last year they were starting in August, and so they started closing things down. We had friends that were camping there and had to evacuate due to the fire, and that Sequoia fire ended up burning for over 30 days. So I think late summer, early fall is kind of the best to avoid, unfortunately, because it’s a really great time to be in the park.

[00:33:05.240] – Tamara Gruber

Yeah. It’s really sad. And to me it’s just terrifying. It’s also not something that I’m familiar with. So it’s probably even more terrifying because I wouldn’t necessarily know the steps to take. Sometimes when you have to live near areas that are prone to certain natural disasters, you kind of know what to do, like you know, what to do in a tornado or something.

[00:33:26.290] – Karilyn Owen

Yeah. I mean, I don’t even really know what to do other than just pack up and get out. And that’s the Rangers. That’s what they’ll come around if it’s even getting close. But even just regardless if it’s close, our air quality has been poor in the late summer just due to fires. Like last year was really bad because we had the Tahoe fires. So all that smoke was coming down then the Sequoia fires, but they typically don’t start until August. So if you can plan earlier in the spring and summer, those would probably be the best.

[00:33:59.570] – Kim Tate

I would also say that I think growing up in the Midwest, a lot of what I remember Midwest schools got out in Mayish. And on the West Coast, a lot of schools on the West Coast seem to go later in the season, like June. So if you do have the opportunity to travel the first of the summer before some of those other schools might be getting out, it might be a good season for it, too.

[00:34:23.120] – Karilyn Owen

Yes. Most of California does not get out until the first or second week of June, and then they actually in La. At least they go back the second week in August.

[00:34:34.690] – Kim Tate

Wow.

[00:34:35.280] – Karilyn Owen

It’s a very short summer. Yeah.

[00:34:36.480] – Kim Tate

Because they get those fall breaks and stuff now, too. And I think they get the whole week of some of the schools get the whole week of the President’s Day weekend. So, Karilyn, you’ve given us quite a good little introduction to it. Do you have any final little tips about visiting the parks, any planning tips about preparing safety tips, things to wear, wildlife, anything that we need to think about if you’re planning to go there?

[00:35:01.490] – Karilyn Owen

Yes, definitely. Some of the big tips would be leave no trace. Try not to pack in very much stuff like packaged food, because you need to try to pack out as much as you can. There are trashes there, but you will see they get filled very quickly. So that’s what we always try to recommend to people. Try to bring recyclable materials as much as you can that you can pack back out. Also, there are bears, so you don’t want to leave food in your car. So there are bear lockers at different locations so you can store away your stuff. And in that sense, you do need to be careful on the trails. If you are on trails that are very lightly trafficked, just make sure to be talking, making noise. Our bears are not aggressive like grizzly bears. They are a little bit scary cats, to be honest. So once they hear something, they’ll run away. But if you startle them by coming up on them quietly, they could get scared and do something that a wild animal might do. I don’t know.

[00:36:01.570] – Tamara Gruber

Do you ever use those bear bells? Are those something that people should do? Yeah.

[00:36:05.920] – Karilyn Owen

I mean, we have one, but I’ll tell you, they’re so annoying when you’re hiking because you Dingle all the time. If you’re with kids, kids usually don’t stop talking.

[00:36:15.540] – Kim Tate

Yeah, exactly. I know a lot of people that have like an old fashioned radio and they’ll even just play like a radio station and on low just kind of to have the talking type stuff. I’m not an adventurous hiker like you are, so we just stick to the two four mile, really populated hikes. It’s not as much of an issue.

[00:36:39.910] – Tamara Gruber

When Hannah and I were in Alberta, we did a couple of hikes that were more remote. And I was so nervous about that because some of them were really steep. So I’m like, we should be talking, but I can’t talk and climb this really steep thing. So I remember Hannah put on her phone to some music to try and play something, but then you run down your battery so quickly.

[00:36:59.650] – Karilyn Owen

Yeah. If I was by myself, I would definitely have some sort of music or something going because you don’t want to startle a bear. There are a lot of bears there, and people actually go to Sequoia to see the bears. Do you know, though, we have been there. We went five times last year. We did not see one bear the whole time. We cannot see a bear for anything. Even Kings Canyon. We didn’t see any.

[00:37:23.470] – Tamara Gruber

So do you think you need bear spray or.

[00:37:25.550] – Karilyn Owen

No, the last I heard, it was illegal to have bear spray in California National parks. Really? Yes. So I don’t know if that is still a Ranger told us that last summer when we were at Devil’s Postpone, she saw a lady come off the trail with bear spray. And she said, you need to put that up because it’s actually illegal to have it in the national parks in California. So I don’t know.

[00:37:51.600] – Karilyn Owen

Because our bears are not aggressive like grizzly bears.

[00:37:55.030] – Kim Tate

Not mainly in Montana.

[00:37:56.740] – Karilyn Owen

Yes, exactly. In Montana, you need your bear spring because they have grizzly bears. And those bears are much scarier for me. The only thing I would be for everyone.

[00:38:08.010] – Kim Tate

Karilyn, not just you.

[00:38:11.050] – Karilyn Owen

Yeah. No, I find them very scary. And I mean, it is, but you just have to practice the safety and talk a lot, which I’m good at.

[00:38:19.610] – Kim Tate

I know a lot of people on the West Coast, you have to be more scared of mountain Lions, Cougars than black bears, actually, because it’s different methodology of how they.

[00:38:31.510] – Karilyn Owen

Yes. More and more we’re encroaching on their land and they have less and less space to live and operate. So you do just have to be aware of all this. And that’s why I think it’s important when you’re hiking with kids to keep them nearby. You don’t want them dragging far behind you or way ahead of you so that you can’t see them. Another thing I was going to recommend if people were planning to spend a lot of time sort of in the parks without cell service, because a lot of the parks don’t have great self service is to get a Garmin or anything. But I have a Garmin. It’s called an inreach and it’s like a GPS phone type thing. Like, I can email people or I could send an SOS if somebody got hurt and it would go straight to the closest Ranger station. So that’s something that we take with us when we’re in the back country just to make sure that we’re safe because it’s just me and my son. So if something happens.

[00:39:28.030] – Tamara Gruber

Glenn bought one of those for me for my birthday last year because I’ve been doing a bit more hiking on my own. And I was going up to Maine where there’s not a lot of other people around. But I find it a little hard to figure out. So I’m going to need you to do a little Zoom with me to teach me how to use it. But I did manage to actually send him like a GPS pin, and I’m starting the trail, amending the trail kind of thing.

[00:39:53.570] – Karilyn Owen

Yeah, I think they’re great. There is a learning curve. The first time we took it out, I think I spent 30 minutes on the trail trying to send that dark pin. What am I doing? But I do feel it is beneficial to have more and more these days. I think just because you never know and even you might see somebody else who falls or hurts themselves and they don’t have access. So it’s nice to have it on the Tramp.

[00:40:18.150] – Tamara Gruber

Definitely. I know when I was doing some of those hikes in Canada with Hannah and we passed maybe two people in 5 hours, I was like, what would happen if something happened to me? Like, do I send her down to the car? But there’s like literally no one even in the parking lot. It was off of a dirt road. I’m like, what would we do? Or what if we came across the grizzly and all those things were going through my head as we’re going? And I’m like, this is really stupid.

[00:40:43.930] – Karilyn Owen

Yeah, I think of those a lot, too. And that’s why this has been useful. And for us, it’s just even here in La hiking because we’ll go into the mountains and there is no service, and we see helicopter rescues pretty much every weekend when we’re out. Wow. We don’t see it personally ourselves, but we see the helicopter going and going to do something.

[00:41:04.390] – Kim Tate

I think it happens a lot, actually. We hear it on the news stories a lot up here about people hikers being not showing back up and stuff like that. So I think it’s definitely a good tip. And some people should consider even if I mean, I’ve thought of that the essential ten type things. And a lot of times we’ll go even if we’re like an Olympic National Park and, oh, it’s just a two mile hike and it’s on a populated trail and we don’t think anything about it. But we should always have these things, even if it seems minor, because you just never know, right?

[00:41:36.520] – Karilyn Owen

Always enough water and food because. Yes, you’re right. You never know. Not to scare anyone, but you just don’t know what would happen. There was actually the trail. I’m sure you remember Kim in Oregon, that is like a mile and a half hike to a waterfall and people got trapped because of the fire started and people were in their flip flops and their bathing suits and then they 13 miles out.

[00:42:00.910] – Kim Tate

Yeah, I remember that.

[00:42:03.910] – Karilyn Owen

I always think of that story whenever we’re just like, oh, it’s just a mile. I’m like, no, make sure we have what we need to have because you just never know what will happen. So it’s good to be prepared and just be safe because it is the wild, right?

[00:42:19.550] – Kim Tate

Yeah. Well, any other tips that you wanted to share? We kind of went off on a bit. I think it’s important stuff to talk about. I think it’s great and we all need to be aware of it. So any other tips do you have for us?

[00:42:33.320] – Karilyn Owen

No, I think that’s good. Just follow the Ranger’s advice. When you’re in the park, they’ll let you know what trails are safe or opened or not opened. And otherwise these parks are really easy to get around. A lot of trails are paved. So like I said, multigenerational families can go. Yeah.

[00:42:52.870] – Tamara Gruber

Sounds like it makes sense to also maybe follow the different parks social media, because it seems like a lot of times that’s where you can find out about when the road would open or some of those updates if it would come to like fire or air quality or something like that, right?

[00:43:09.720] – Karilyn Owen

Yes, 100%. They update those all the time. So there’s a Sequoia Conservancy. They do some updates, but also Sequoia National Park, Sequoia and Kings Canyon because it is just one. All their social media is just one.

[00:43:23.740] – Tamara Gruber

Well, we have a last question that we ask all of our guests, and I have a feeling I know what you’re going to talk about, but I have no clue what she do you have any favorite brands of clothing or gear that you use when you travel or for you every day of your life?

[00:43:41.580] – Karilyn Owen

Yes. You know what I’m about to say? I am obsessed with my wool and my wool dresses. So I have been wearing a wool it’s called wool and dress for the last year. Actually, over a year now, I’ve been wearing one of their dresses every single day. But I backpack, hike, do everything in them. But that’s not for everyone. But any which way, I would say wool is my Goto for everything. I love it for hiking, for backpacking, for travel. It doesn’t hold odors. It doesn’t wrinkle. You don’t have to wash it so much, and it keeps you warm and cool at the same time.

[00:44:17.890] – Kim Tate

And I have to say that Karilyn actually called us out because Tamara and I both are like, it sounds scratchy and itchy and uncomfortable. And we had to get a good feel of her dress on this trip that we were on with her, and it just feels like a normal cotton dress. So I was pleasantly surprised by that. But I was wondering, so what do you wear for your leggings? Are those wool leggings as well?

[00:44:39.450] – Karilyn Owen

Yes, I have wool leggings, and I have wool underwear. I have little socks.

[00:44:45.070] – Kim Tate

Nice.

[00:44:45.860] – Karilyn Owen

I have wool everything. It has changed my life, to be honest, because it is so easy to care for wool has changed from what we think of those big, scratchy wool sweaters.

[00:44:57.550] – Kim Tate

This Merino wool cleaned or whatever.

[00:45:01.840] – Karilyn Owen

Yeah, Merino wool is so easy to care for. You can wash it in your washing machine. I air dry it. Some people put it in their dryer. And not to gross anyone out, but I can wear my wool socks even on backpacking trips for two, three, four days, even before there’s even a slightest smell from them. So they’re just really great. And same with the dress. It doesn’t hold odors, and it’s really held up really well. Yeah, I’m just totally obsessed with wool.

[00:45:32.950] – Tamara Gruber

I’m glad you mentioned that, Kim, because Karilyn is talking about, like, wool underwear, and I’m just wanting to itch all over. She said that, but I was really amazed by the feel of it, so it might convince me to at least give it a try, because it felt breathable.

[00:45:49.030] – Kim Tate

We have our friend Eric. Karilyn, he’s sworn by these Merino shirts. And I asked him the same thing. I was like, aren’t they kind of scratchy or itchy? And he’s like, no, not at all. And he’ll just pack those and he can wear them. And he’s a guy. I mean, I don’t know. Guys stink. And he can wear it, like, a couple of days without having to wash it in between. So it’s kind of crazy. I don’t quite know. And it’s not like some fancy, oh, it’s threaded with silver or whatever people try and sell you onto these days. But no, it’s just something naturally about the fibers, I guess.

[00:46:21.740] – Karilyn Owen

Even Cian, he’s gotten on the wool wagon, and he now only wears wool shirts, and he’s preteen those kind of that age gets stinky. And he’s always amazed, too. He’s like, I don’t smell when I wear this. When he got off of a backpacking trip last summer, he had a cotton shirt on, and I didn’t notice on the trail because you don’t notice everyone. We all smell. But then when you get in the car.

[00:46:44.630] – Karilyn Owen

My God, you have to take that shirt off, not sit in the car with you. But then now with his wool shirt, there’s no smell. It’s so insane. I don’t understand it, even for kids. And yeah, the unbound Merino is what Eric wears, which I have a hoodie of theirs that I love as well.

[00:47:05.710] – Kim Tate

Nice.

[00:47:06.300] – Karilyn Owen

Definitely check it out.

[00:47:07.460] – Kim Tate

That’s good to know because you guys have sold me. I’m like, I need to invest in some. And I’ve really fallen in love with dresses for traveling. It’s mainly just the cold, but I see how you pair it with leggings and looks great.

[00:47:19.090] – Karilyn Owen

Yeah. No, it’s perfect for travel. I mean, when I went on a trip in November, I took two dresses and my leggings for a five day trip, and that was it. Then you can just do things with a little scarf or jewelry or to fix it up and change it up a little bit or a card again.

[00:47:37.760] – Kim Tate

Well, thank you again for all these great tips. And it’s always fun to talk to you and hear because you have such enthusiasm for your life and the way you like to travel. So thanks for sharing with us. Why don’t you remind our listeners where they can find you online?

[00:47:51.910] – Karilyn Owen

I can be found nobackhome.com and on Instagram at Nobackhome and on Facebook. Noback home. I’m on Twitter, but I don’t really use it.

[00:48:01.140] – Kim Tate

So I won’t even share that I’ve fallen in love with Twitter lately. It’s kind of fun. I find that I open it up almost every day and some people are so good about just conversational talk. And so I kind of fallen back in love with Twitter.

[00:48:14.130] – Karilyn Owen

I just don’t have time. I can’t do one more thing.

[00:48:19.870] – Tamara Gruber

Well, you’re great about sharing all of your hikes and everything on Instagram. I love following your stories, too, because it just gives me such a sense of places that I’ve never heard of and would love to go explore with you sometime. Do you have any trips coming up that you’d want to kind of tease?

[00:48:38.710] – Karilyn Owen

Maybe a really shocking trip that does not fall into line with any of this, but I may be going to Iraq in April. A totally different off the radar. Let’s see. Otherwise I have Uganda in the summer, and then we’re trying for the John Muir trail as well, but otherwise, just a few little local trips here in Southern California.

[00:49:04.760] – Tamara Gruber

I was going to say it doesn’t sound too far off for you because you’re someone that has traveled so extensively to kind of a lot of places that are a little bit off the beaten path. And so I feel like in recent years Because of the pandemic we’re so used to seeing in California. But before that, you lived in India for so long. You’ve explored so much of you’ve gone back and done that and then you had your one year of traveling around the world with Cian.

[00:49:34.700] – Karilyn Owen

It kind of goes back to my roots of this was the type of traveler I was before I had key and I was always looking for those just crazy, off the beaten path places to go solo travel. But I haven’t done that much since I’ve had him. So it feels a little bit scary, to be honest.

[00:49:52.940] – Karilyn Owen

Like, do I want to go there? I’m not going to be hiking. I’m not going to be doing outdoor things, but I think it might be good for me to just kind of reconnect with my former self in that way.

[00:50:03.950] – Tamara Gruber

Yeah, well, you’ve certainly lucked out with having an amazing kid who’s super adventurous and intellectually curious so that he’s been a great companion for you in the travels.

[00:50:16.350] – Karilyn Owen

Yes, I know I could not ask for a better travel partner. He’s really fun and he pushes me when I get too scared and he helps comfort me when I’m like I can’t go over this long bridge.

[00:50:31.190] – Tamara Gruber

I always say when I see an amazing kid, I think parenting has a lot to do with it. Good on you.

[00:50:38.140] – Kim Tate

I think that’s right. Well, thanks again, Karilyn. It was great chatting with you and hope you have a great day and look forward to following your adventures.

[00:50:45.490] – Tamara Gruber

You too.

[00:50:45.990] – Tamara Gruber

It was nice to chat with you guys.

[00:50:47.340] – Tamara Gruber

Thanks, Karilyn.

[00:50:51.990] – Kim Tate

Thanks for joining us for another episode here at vacation mavens. And stay tuned because in two weeks we’re going to be talking with Jennifer, who is a writer for the points guy and she’s going to be sharing all of her insightful knowledge about credit cards and maybe a little more advanced Than we’ve covered before some advanced topics, but we’re going to talk all about how credit cards can help you travel for free or for cheap.

[00:51:14.560] – Tamara Gruber

I’m going to bring my notebook, start taking notes.

[00:51:17.490] – Kim Tate

There’s probably a lot of articles on the points guy, but even that website, it’s like, oh, my gosh, so much information, so it’ll be good to talk with her.

[00:51:23.990] – Tamara Gruber

Well, sometimes it’s nice just when you hear it Versus having to read and your brain processes. So these days we all have short attention spans, which probably means no one’s actually listening to this anymore. But we will talk to you guys next time.

[00:51:49.970] – Tamara Gruber

Bye .